Orc Labs Podcast 35 – D&D 5E Crowd Control!

/ Orc Labs

5e spellcasters, still the masters of crowd control? Monks a good early option? How the power curve has changed for Wizards.

5 thoughts on “Orc Labs Podcast 35 – D&D 5E Crowd Control!”

  1. Hi guys,

    Treantmonk here. I did a 5e guide for Wizards, you can see here:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit

    I think what I disagreed with most in this podcast is the idea that Wizards are no longer the best crowd control class because a Sorcerer can use heighten spell to help prevent an enemy from saving. (and some other stuff about Monks stunning one enemy). I get that Wizards aren’t heads above the rest of the classes power-wise, but for what Wizards have always been good at, they still are the best.

    The best Wizard spells are, and have always been (including 3.5 and Pathfinder) one of 2 kinds of spells:
    1) Buffs
    2) Mass debuff
    3) Battlefield Control

    The buffs don’t need a saving throw, so no issue there.
    Mass debuffs require many saving throws, and the idea has always been that some will pass and some will fail – this is still the case.
    Then there was Battlefield Control (Such as “Wall” spells). These spells don’t provide a saving throw but are the master spells for “divide and conquer” strategies. Wizards remain the master of these kinds of spells (Sorcerers don’t even have access to many of the best BC spells now). Heck, Illusionists of 14th level can create walls that don’t even require concentration!

    Finally, you seem to have a very different take on saves in Pathfinder/3.5 vs. D&D5e then I do. Single opponent save or suck spells have always been a risky proposition, and I don’t find that the game has changed in that regard.

    So to sum up, I agree that the Wizard is no longer the ultimate class power-wise, but if your claim is that the wizard is no longer the ultimate “crowd control” class, I strongly disagree.

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  3. WRT the necromancer+paladin with Tiny skeletons (from e36 that hasn’t been posted here yet), you can fit 452 Tiny creatures in a 30-foot radius. 30^2*3.14=2826 square feet. A Tiny creature takes up 6.25 square feet (2.5*2.5). If we expand this to flying creatures, you could stuff in 3391 tiny creatures in a 30-foot radius hemisphere (assuming the maximum Tiny height of 2 feet in 3.5e). 30^3*3.14/2=42390 cubic feet. A 2-foot tall/long Tiny creature takes up 12.5 cubic feet.

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  4. Pingback: Orc Labs Podcast 39 – Talking with Treantmonk! 5E Wizards | Orc Labs

  5. This episode feels… short-sighted. Actually, as I’ve been commenting and listening deeper into it, I think you’re flat-out misinformed. I have problems with most of your points here.

    First, utility. Wizards are still the utility class (Bards probably a close second), and utility is far more than just out-of-combat “Herpa derpa, we need to get over this pit.” Utility spells can change a battlefield. Stuck between a nasty trap and a huge monster? Wizards have access to at least a dozen ways to deal with the situation.

    Also, you joke on Transmutation school, but don’t mention Transmuter’s Stone? And, you pick out the one class that has the most roleplay-heavy usage. What about Overcharge? Illusory Reality? Portent? Benign Transportation?

    You act like you want “crowd control” to mean “spam damage and conditions, no saves, make everything bow down.” You say you don’t want to kick the door in and hit stuff, but that this is what he’s relegated to. This is backwards! The Wizard is the LEAST capable guns blazing primary caster, and is at his worst when expected to fill this role. You’re supposed to be throwing up walls, illusions, buffs, mass debuffs, distractions, conjures, you know… CROWD CONTROL SPELLS.

    Stunning Strike… One enemy. One round (not two, just you get to hit it while it’s still stunned). Requires ki, which is a VERY limited resource until ~Monk 10, at which point it just becomes a mostly limited resource (unless your party short rests after every encounter). You have to hit AND it gets a CON save. Don’t get me wrong, I’m playing a Monk right now and Stunning Strike is the shit. The Monk can take one enemy out of the fight better. (Weapon attack, Stunning Strike, FoB, WotOH to prone, WotOH to move target 15 feet or negate its reaction. 2 ki points = BBEG uber-fucked if it misses 2 out of 3 saves.)

    But the Wizard can still shape the overall battlefield much better. You just have to be smarter, guys. Look at spells like Misty Step, Minor Illusion, Haste, Counterspell, Hold Person/Monster, Wall spells, etc. Wizards are getting a bad rap from people who read Witch Bolt, then used it and were disappointed. Or those who struggle with Concentration spell planning.

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